The Sound of Two Songs

Hi Mark

Thanks for your excellent work about my country. Was the time when I was thinking about something similar with medium format, but when I saw first reslts I thought "Well, it's looks like Mark Power's work, Shit.... he do it better..." :)

This first pictures is from Wroclaw? hmmm I am not sure....

Greetings from wroclaw.

Comment posted by marcin luczkowski on October 29, 2008

Hello Mark,

I am really happy to see your photographs from Poland on Magnum's blog! Great works!
"until I start my next Polish project..."? .. I am really curious about your next Polish project.

Hugs from Poland,

Aga Luczakowska

Comment posted by Aga Luczakowska on October 29, 2008

Mark, I understand that you no longer worry about portraying Poland fairly. But do you worry about the reaction of people living there to your work? (Given the comments by Marcin and Aga, I suspect this isn’t a problem).

Also, I’m wondering if this work has been exposed to a broad Polish audience outside of the gallery context? If so, how has it been received?

Comment posted by Alec Soth on October 29, 2008

Alec

And what do you think about my country when you are looking at this pictures.Is there something interesting for you? (look at the rest of Mark's pictures from Poland) I just love this part of reality I live in, But I don't know how people react for It.
From one side I wondering why photographers want work in Poland, from other why they don't want!!

We have unique, unbelievable reality. And Mark showed it.

Thanks Mark.

Comment posted by marcin luczkowski on October 29, 2008

Congratulations Mark! The work looks great! I am both sad and happy that your Polish project is over. Cannot wait to see it in a book.

And Alec, I do believe Polish people are open minded enough to appreciate this work (at least the younger generation is). We are all very critical of ourselves and our country and can see all of its aspects, its sudden changes and lack of it for that matter. But I agree, it would be interesting to see what broader Polish audience have to say about it.

best,
Magda

Comment posted by Magda Biernat on October 29, 2008

Dear,
Mark,
Alec,

Where do I begin?

My first reaction to the work was sculpted by the questions and comments. Will people in Poland perceive the work well? What does that really mean? As a photographer, and as a Polish immigrant, living in LA, I have always wanted to photograph in Poland. I'm glad that a Magnum photographer is getting the opportunity to do so. So yes, the work is very valid.

I started to make a check list of images that I thought needed to touch on Poland and its history. Religion, Pope John Paul, Industrial Engineering, and youth are a few.

Poland and most Eastern European countries have a appeal in regards to the old bringing in the new. Images such as the Pope's funeral broadcasting speak on that very clearly. I also thought about the idea of documenting any place. What would one make images about in a foreign place? Ones knowledge of a place becomes evident in a documentary. I think that is clear in the choices a photographer makes to set up the camera, shoot it, ask about it, record it and present it.

One image I have an issue with is the woman in a fur coat. It's very stereotypical to an outsiders view. I'm not sure what we're being offered besides a document of I told you so. Same way images made of America and Americans can be dismissed due to obvious classification. That seems to be the critique every photographer gets but its a valid question. I don't think that a photographer or Mark, has to justify their image making. But I have recently been struggling with the idea of "sympathy" in photography. I don't see that much here but a lonesome tree next to a bright yellow wall has metaphors that I , as a viewer, am depicting. I question, what does the subject receive out of being in the images. The photographers are taken with care and the sense of time is apparent. The sculpting of the work is key. I'd love to see more!!!

I keep thinking about August Sander and his intentions, if clear, and comparing the role of lets say Robert Frank. Two very different approaches about the people and a place.

In the end, the sequencing and formality of the work is what makes Marks voice clear. A book, I'd enjoy that. I might even buy it. A book maybe done as a collection, an archive. Maybe a little bit of Robert and August.

I'd love to hear Mark respond.....

thanks,
Karolina

Comment posted by Karolina on October 29, 2008

Glad from peace.

Comment posted by Pevost Xavier on October 30, 2008

finishing a project - difficult.. well, quite :o)

the more i have worked and buried myself into a subject , the less i have concerned myself with the superficiality of the project and the deeper the project has seemed..
larger bodies of work, which i have only 2 of really, have been broken down into smaller projects.. some which were intended and some which only after the event i have realized are projects at all.

mark - do you find that to be the case as well?
that through photographing constantly there are intended projects which are easier to complete - and there are unintended projects - sometimes much more interesting to others - which only come together through constant photographing?
which kind of project is more in tune with who the photographer is, i wonder.. and is it really possible to finish these unintended doodles while there is still breath within us?

Comment posted by david bowen on October 30, 2008

There seems to be two truths with fine art photographers, (1) they will sooner or later feel they have grown out of rendering subject matter in black and white and (2) they will grow out of the surface area that 35mm film provides.

I don’t know specifically why this happens, i’m sure there are loads of personal reasons, maybe for some ‘more is better’ and possibly with others the complexity to conquer the media brings the appeal. I do see it happening with most of my friends and even i am now infected, finally purchasing a 1968 blad.

It’s of course true that people who have conquered the more complex aspects of colour harmony, manoeuvring larger equipment, and the sheer gamble of failed shots have in fact moved off the plateau that many of us togs will find to be an indefinite home, but maybe this leap in quality is for purely incidental reasons. I find that i’m a much better photographer now because i try to darkroom print my images and the suffering makes me think hard about getting the exposure right at capture, so maybe it’s all about the consequences larger format brings with it that improves us… but that’s not my point..

My point is about larger format photography and the sacrifice i think comes with it and in my humble opinion Mark, what’s lacking from at least your eleven image edit.

I would describe this as the energy you get from ‘visual pace’. It’s the anxious excitement you get from drastically changing points of view from up-close-and-personal, to out-far with context setting shots, and then back in again with a detail shot so intimate as showing the worn hands of a worker.

This is what i find lacking in this short edit Mark. The subject matter is very palatable and the images are very beautiful, but since everything seems to be collected from such a great distance, it all seems safe and un-engaging... at least to me personally...

Don’t get me wrong, i would gladly pay to walk around a gallery and reflect on each of these images Mark. They are soothing. But i wonder if the constraint of large format fumbling has prevented the capture of some images that were collected from less-safe distances.

I wish i could describe the visual pace better, but where i saw it most recently was in Linda Herzog’s book Mihriban. She has put her images from her book ">here and ">here. I don’t want to debate the merit of the images, i only want to better show my point of visual pace.

Comment posted by Joe on October 30, 2008

Sorry, the links to the images in Linda Herzog’s book Mihriban can be found

here:

http://www.grad.ch/izmir_01.html

and here:

http://www.grad.ch/izmir_02.html

Comment posted by Joe on October 30, 2008

WOW! :)))))...wonderful, photographs...and absolutely no time at all to write...though, the discussion (when does one finish, how does it feel, where to go from here after a project has been completed) is a very very important and necessary one :)))..one that afflicts us all ;)))))....and I am so happy to see Mark's work and so happy to see the Magnum Blog come fully alive with not only ideas but with the introduction of work that many of us, or shit, at least ME was nto familiar with..i had no idea about Mark's Poland project....and god damned, are these images wild and brilliant...such an odd odd peculiar world we live in, not only in Poland :))))...

but since my friends Marcin and Aga have done a much better job of writing about the work, i wish to share with Mark and readers only a poem that, at least for me, captures the essence of photography (or writing/music/dance)....actually captures the spirit of being alive...and certaintly seems relevant to these weird and wonderful photographs...

from the great Czeslaw Milosz (maybe Marcin or Aga can supply the Polish version):

the same feelings i have about Poland and all "odd" places, which is every corner of the globe, every street and curve and damp window and wayward beach and bee-lined city and broken-speedlimitsign highway we live and work and crawl and fly and addle upon...

when i looked at the pics here, i immediately recalled this beautiful poem...

thanks so much for introducing your work to me Mark....

running
bob

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ENCOUNTER

We were riding through frozen fields in a wagon at dawn.
A red wing rose in the darkness.

And suddenly a hare ran across the road.
One of us pointed to it with his hand.

That was long ago. Today neither of them is alive,
Not the hare, nor the man who made the gesture.

O my love, where are they, where are they going
The flash of a hand, streak of movement, rustle of pebbles.
I ask not out of sorrow, but in wonder.

--Czeslaw Milosz

Comment posted by Bob Black on October 30, 2008

Is there much home-grown documentary photography coming out of Poland? I looked at a couple of essays on Polish photography here and here, and it seems like most of the work falls on the experimental side of the spectrum.

Comment posted by Alec Soth on October 30, 2008

I think this is great photography, nice simple idea very well executed.
The images seems to be taken in somewhat distant and soft manner which I guess is the current photographic trend
but still a lot of "local" vibes got into frames (consciously or unconsciously).
It is interesting for me to see Poland through western eyes and yet it still evokes the filings I am very familiar with.
Let me put my polish sunglasses on and share with you in few sentences how does it feel trying to keep it appropriate at the same time for the "magnitude" of this blog.

What is the next dominating wave that will run through Poland - wave of shiny fashionable things that is coming?
After war, communism, uprise of the church with its medieval philosophy that still managed to "incorruptly" stick gods fingers into the government.
The real people on the opening image are so tiny, like small stones, leftovers of the rocks eroded by cold winds and acid rains.
They are too small for the size of this fashion anyway. inexperienced, they are easy aim to be put in debt for the international moneymakers.
And the middlemen of big corporations are already present in Poland.
How different is taxi driver on your photo from Martin Scorsese movie. With this harsh background it looks more like one of the NASA's images of the mission-spacecraft landing on the moon.
And "wild mushrooms" - yes they are real! and they are not hallucinogenic.
Who needs hallucinogenic after all.

Comment posted by Pawel on October 30, 2008

nice article~ keep one!

Comment posted by kevinseo on October 31, 2008

Woow..Wonderful piece of works... Great!! I wud like to ask,r all the pictures really true? i mean they really exist? coz that's wonderful, and they make me wanna travel n take pictures too....

Comment posted by Nadia on October 31, 2008

Firstly I'm excited by the response my post has created and flattered, enormously, by the largely supportive comments.

Alec asks a poignant question about how the work is generally perceived by a Polish audience, and the postings so far seem to indicate that Poles (at least those who read blogs!) seem to appreciate it. This is somewhat different, however, from the response my part of the 'Eurovisions' project elicited from a fairly hostile audience in Warsaw back in 2005. Four of us Magnum folk (Marlow, Steele-Perkins, Wylie and myself) held a 'conference' at the offices of Gazeta Wyborcza, Poland's main quality newspaper. There were a number of people in the audience baying for my blood, yet I have to say that some of their comments were disappointing and in their own way stereotypical. For instance: 'Why had I photographed tower blocks when Poland had other types of buildings?" In fact there was only one such picture on the wall of the gallery, and that featured a block that had been painted by the local authorities to brighten it up; this was during the early period of EU membership when European money had yet to reach the smaller cities. Yet, what I saw as a positive picture others saw as negative. Now we all know we can't please all the people all the time, and I guess that's the point when I decided to stop trying. But on the other hand it is the nature of projects set in exotic foreign lands (for this is, I admit, exactly what 'The Sound of Two Songs' is) that in the early days one tends to photograph only the most obvious subjects. In the case of Poland this is undoubtably the vestiges of Communism, and in particular the rotting hulks of industry to be found in Upper Silesia (which remains one of the most extraordinary landscapes I've ever seen). My part of 'Eurovisions' consisted mainly of such pictures, since these where made during my first month in Poland, so to a certain extent I can understand the animosity of sections of that audience in Warsaw. Now, after 25 visits, and four years, I do believe I see something different.

But that point is a key to my working methods. Photographers who claim they can 'get under the skin' of a foreign land just by spending a lot of time are kidding themselves. I fully recognise that Polish culture is very different from my own, and so that's why the majority of my pictures are taken from a 'respectful distance' which I hope answers David's point. That too explains one of the many reasons I'm drawn to large format (5"x4" - I'm not as ambitious as Alec Soth...!) which renders beautiful detail when seen in print (and of course the internet is not the ideal place to get a sense of this). You'll perhaps notice that the 'subject' sometimes appears rather vague in my pictures, in that I'm often not telling anyone what, specifically, I want them to look at. Everything is to be seen in some sort of context, and each picture to be seen in the context of the rest. That's why I'm only really interested in working in a series. This is by no means an original idea, but it might help to explain why my pictures tend to look as they do. On the other hand the portraits tend to be of people I know (with one or two exceptions) which is why they are closer, and made with very shallow depth of field, thereby separating them from the background. (The woman in the fur coat, by the way, is the mother of my assistant/fixer/driver/interpreter/teacher/friend Konrad Pustola; actually she commands a pretty high position in the Warsaw stock exchange, although I'll admit this is not clear in the picture. I'm surprised, however, that Karolina thinks the image is stereotypical... Only goes to show one never can tell!

I'm writing this from Krakow, a beautiful city in the South of Poland. I'm here with my family on a short holiday. OK, so I said I'd finished the project, yet I still brought my camera along.... just in case. But my tripod head fell apart in transit so I guess that puts paid to that. Today is Halloween (and my children are giving me a hard time because they can't go Trick or Treating tonight and wish they were back home in Brighton instead, where they could). Tomorrow is the 'Day of the Dead' (apologies to Poles reading this because that's not a very good translation, but you get the idea I hope). Anyway, it's a day/night when all the graveyards here are lit with thousands of tiny candles. I've seen this before and it's a beautiful, life-affirming sight. So maybe I'll try and borrow another tripod from someone...

By the way, if anyone wants to see more of my Polish project, I would suggest you visit my own website (http://www.markpower.co.uk/index.cfm?g=1) which has a reasonably up-to-date edit and sequence, though as yet it doesn't include the newest pictures.

Comment posted by mark power on October 31, 2008

This article is, once again, very interesting. Very encouraging for the Magnum blog...

Mark,

When you say that you wanted such and such picture, do you usually draw lists of the pictures that you want to complete the essay ? If so, when do you write them ?

Alec,

Thanks for your answer on the previous post. Now I would like to ask you the question you asked Mark : how did people react to your project ? When you gave prints away, were people enthusiastic about them or did you get negative reactions ?
Do you show your previous work to the people you want to photograph ? Since your pictures are not the pictures they would take of themselves, how do you deal with their reactions ?

Thanks !

Comment posted by pierre yves racine on October 31, 2008

No, I don't make lists of pictures that I want - I'm not a 'butterfly collecting' photographer. But before my last visit, having already made a basic edit and sequence of the work from the previous trips, I did realise there were certain key subjects absent. So I kept my eyes alert to some of those things, and got myself to the right part of the country - the coast, specifically - so that I could make use of a different kind of landscape. Along the way, of course, come many, many surprises... this is something which I still love about photography - at least the kind of 'street photography (for that is what it is) that I do - I never know what I'm going to find when I set out for the day. This is a wonderous thing, really.

'I ask not out of sorrow, but in wonder'... thank you for that, Bob. That is a beautiful line from a beautiful poem. I may well use it, if you don't object?

Oh, and Marcin, that first picture is from Poznan, not Wroclaw... but you were in the right area!

Comment posted by mark power on November 1, 2008

Mark,
I like your work. There's sort of 35mm aesthetic to it. How do you work like that with a large format camera? the people that are in the frames is that because they walk in to it? or do you ask some of them to pose? I'm asking because people usually stay away from cameras..
And how is it different working with mf vs lf for you?

Cheers,

Martin

Comment posted by Martin Brink on November 1, 2008

Very interesting answer. Thank you Marc !

Comment posted by pierre yves racine on November 1, 2008

Alec
It's difficult to talk about polish documentary photography. For many Years in Poland, people recognize two kinds of photography. First one was artistic, with a lot of conceptual works, and the second was reportage, documentary etc. In my opinion, documentary photography started to looking some place in polish photography after 1989 r.
I know that documentary photography was before this year (there was group and magazine called "itd.", there was magazine "tygodnik świat" and some others), but even now, a lot of people don't think about documentary photography as a part of "real photography".

thats my opinion, maybe some other guys and girls from Poland didn't agree with me. I'm open for disscusion.

Alec, if You want see some works of polish photographer, check:
www.rafalmilach.com
www.andrzejkramarz.com
www.photodocument.pl
www.kubadabrowski.com
www.pokrycki.com
www.szymonroginski.com - landscapes is my favor

there is some links in my www, if You are interested.
take care

Comment posted by Rafal on November 2, 2008

Martin - A lot of photographers also enjoy fishing. I don't myself, but I understand the analogy. Both disciplines require enormous patience. And so, if I want people in my pictures I find a landscape, a structure, I like, and then wait for the people to come. Joel Meyerowitz wrote beautifully about this when making his work in the street in the '70s... I'm paraphrasing here, but he talked about the 'theatre' of the street, and the wave upon wave of actors who came towards him.

Obviously working with a large plate camera is very different from a 35mm, or even medium format for that matter. For a start you have very little depth of field, so in order to include people you must minimise the foreground. A high vantage point is best since you then don't need much DOF. However, most of my pictures are still devoid of people because of this technical problem (I use very slow film too) but recently I've been trying my best to include them when I can. The 'choreography' of the passing public cannot be controlled of course, so often film gets wasted, which is expensive. By the way, I understand that Cartier-Bresson used to work in much the same way, and certainly when I used to look at his contact sheets in the Magnum office in Paris this certainly seemed to be his method.

I hope that helps...

Comment posted by mark power on November 3, 2008

Mark

I learned you are painter (or rather you was), after art school. I see some connection in your photography, but I can't say that color is strong part of your work. Color is not a tool for you only shapes. Am I right?

Marcin

ps. I am paiter too, now I try fight for both painting and photography, buy I have only one mind...

Comment posted by marcin luczkowski on November 3, 2008

hi Mark,

Poznan, of course. I can now clearly recognize where exactly this image was taken - corner of Glogowska and Hetmanska street. That is funny.

Coming back to the reaction people in Poland would have to your photographs. I can see how older generation would not appreciate this way of portraying Poland. I remember when I took a random picture in Poznan of an abandoned house in ruins and posted it on my website (see: Projects> behind > picture #8), and how my mother reacted to it. She was very disappointed that the only picture of Poland that I posted was of its "ugly" part. She wanted me to show the new shiny buildings - the modern and "new" Poland everybody was waiting for.

Comment posted by Magda Biernat on November 3, 2008

Mark,
Thanks for the answer!
Working like you do I guess you have all basically pre-set and composed and maybe don't have to look at the ground glass when shooting? you probably have a cable release as well.. So just anticipate the moment and press the release?
Some kind of pictures just change as fast as you raise the camera to your eyes.. Guess Bresson was really really fast =)

Cheers

Comment posted by Martin Brink on November 3, 2008

Nice work. Poland is a country I fell in love with at the beginning of the nineties; a time of transition and contradicting prides of the Polish people: pride first in their country and the way it had started the fall of Communism alone, and pride too in that stoicism under shittiness (sorry can`t think of another word at the moment). To me, as an Englishman with our love of grumbling and aversion to bombast, I found that overt patriotism aggressive and uncomfortable but understandable when the reality i saw around was still shaping the country to the Poles ideas of themselves. And yet at the same time when I tried to empathise by refering to problems of a similar nature in the UK I was told I knew nothing of the really bad, I was lucky, England was easy and Poland was so, so much worse, in every way, than England could ever be.
I haven`t been back there for 8 years now and your images show a land still in transition. The pride in overcoming the transition was something that impressed me about the Poles when i was there and wonder if they have taken on some of the nationalistic delicacy of feeling of a country that is now JUST part of Europe rather than the leading maverick of the former Eastern Block. The new life of being part of the West must be better but perhaps it is spun too much and too high for the world image and home electorate these days and that makes people sensitive to having faults, some of which are historical and not of their making, pointed out. Where once there was pride in that less than ideal reality: like towerblocks and ancient trams, now there is embarressment perhaps and too ready a willingness to attack those that do not follow the propoganda. I live in Japan and it is the same; people here genuinely believe thay have the highest standard of living in the world and yet know that other countries have bigger houses, less working hours and more freedoms than they do. There is denial of course and arguing about these anomolies can make people very defensive but our lisland isolation has kept a private pride in shittiness (I guess it is an okay word), to be shared only with others of the same race and situation, that Europeans are apparently losing.
Damon

Comment posted by Damon Coulter on November 7, 2008

thanks so much for introducing your work to me Mark....

Comment posted by Nike Kobe IV on June 10, 2009