All-age gut strategy

I think you gentlemen have answered my question before I've even has a chance to ask it.

My friend David is a painter with an advanced degree from a prestigious university and he makes his living selling his work. He has been after me for sometime to write an "artist's statement" about my work. For what ever reason I have found that very hard to do.

There is so much about the world I live in and the people I see that interests me, it's almost impossible for me to boil it down to a couple of sentences. I just don't see the point.

Maybe the day I'm laying on my death bed I'll be able to look at the work I've done and write my "artist's statement" then. In the mean time I think the most important thing I can do is make photographs.

Am I missing something?

Comment posted by Len on December 1, 2008

Happy Birthday, Elliott!

You got me by a year.

Adrian Taylor

Comment posted by Adrian Taylor on December 1, 2008

For us, female photographers who did not spent their time in setting fire to their home and exhibit it in art galleries, (although at times it would have been an easier option then cleaning) for those who waited patiently for their children to grow up and then pursue their photographic career, life just begins at 50!

Comment posted by rina on December 1, 2008

Thanks, Alec, for being sensitive to us older photogs. I hang out on David Alan Harvey's blog/forum where I'd say the average age is somewhere under 40. Recently I was invited to submit my work to a photo competition for "new, emerging photographers" but when I read their press release the adjective "young" was liberally sprinkled throughout. At 66, the only thing young about me now is my attitude, but maybe that's all that counts.

I very much resonate with what Elliott and Thomas had to say about following their gut. As an aging emerging photog, my gut is my best friend when it comes to art and life. Actually there is no longer any separation between art and life for me now. It's all an adventure...

Patricia

Comment posted by Patricia Lay-Dorsey on December 1, 2008

even when i was the youngest of photographers, the age division has always made me smart a little.. i mean really.. what does it matter to the camera or paper?
why no competitions for photographers with blond hair?
i think the field of photography needs to be divided into those who like marmite on toast and those who do not.

eyes do not wrinkle as skin does and a sharp eye and good intention is as valid from my friend Patricia as it is from the youngest amateurs..

i can understand magazine editors and more trying to catch photographers while they are young.. the younger you catch a photographer the longer the body of work they may produce might be .. the earlier we educate others eyes the more good work they can produce..

however - who is not an emerging photographer? really.. with every commission or every story entered into with the pure intention of photographing.. communicating with pictures.. it is an emerging piece of work.
seeking out the young talent is one thing - and there is plenty for them to enter and gain recognition.
basing too much emphasis on the young is another and, outside of Butlins holiday camps ´mr muscles´ competitions, age divisions have little relevance compared to quality, intention, passion and education of photographers starting to find their feet.

i´m in a very stubborn mood as well.. probably ´cause i just turned 36.
>:ø/

Comment posted by david bowen on December 1, 2008

enjoyed the interviews :)))...have always loved Elliot's humour :))))....and if i see another frickin' magazine/competition/galleryshow/grant sounce again that equates "emerging" with "young", im never gonna yak with the photo world again ;))))))))....the whole "find the new young artist" is just about comoditiy and money...making money (the hope if i catch a young gun, it 'll pay off in the long run" ;)))....it makes me, what 's the word Alec, ....verklempt!!!!!!!....

at 40, i dont know what i am, only what i gotta do: make sure my photography and writing doesnt interfere with my son's life ;))), which it often does....

on youth, beloved Wilde:

“The soul is born old but grows young. That is the comedy of life. And the body is born young and grows old. That is life's tragedy.

or better

"Young men want to be faithful, and are not; old men want to be faithless, and cannot.”

that the photo world still gives a fuck about age, is just an indication how narcissitic and enslaved it still is ;)))))...

tyhanks for the interview :))))

cheers
bob

Comment posted by bobblack on December 1, 2008

Why are you "worried" about photographers over 50 with break out projects? Like, you're afraid we'll drop dead? Our blood pressure will get too high if we jury into a show? Lots of photographers remain productive until they are way past 50, and there might be good reasons for someone not to emerge until later. Why is age a factor? Shouldn't it be about the quality of the work?

Comment posted by Ellen Rennard on December 1, 2008

oh my...

this has all the makings of a digital vs. film debate...

Alec, did you see this coming? did you design this? :-)

Comment posted by Joe on December 1, 2008

Thanks Alec for bringing this up, there has been a lot of discussion about it on the blogs of late, and while I appreciate Foam, Magenta Foundation, and others for even trying supporting lesser known artists, I do not for the life of me know where the 34 or 35 age cut off comes from. It seems arbitrary and perhaps it keeps them from seeing a lot of great work. For the record, PDN 30 now has no age limit. I think that these limits on contests/grants/calls for entries, would be best left in the past. One thing Amy Elkins and I are proud of, is that Women in Photography has no age requirement and we curate blind, we rarely look at the artist's age until after we select their work. Whether it is a sixteen year old or a sixty five year old, if their is work good enough to show, it goes up.

Comment posted by Cara Phillips on December 1, 2008

joe.. you made me smile.. ta.

slide / film?
digi / neg?
canon / nikon?
wide/long?
BnW/colour?

salmon/monkfish?

but joe - why no link to your work?

Comment posted by david bowen on December 1, 2008

Lover / Fighter

Photographer / Writer...

i'm still struggling to figure out which one of those i am David...

that's why no link :-)

Comment posted by Joe on December 1, 2008

Joe/David: :)))))

y'all forgot the MOther of All Battles:

1) To Be or Not to Be

2) Yes or No

3) Why or Why Not....

i say Salmon...unless it's SeaBass ;))))

running
b

Comment posted by bobblack on December 1, 2008

I am not so much bother by emerging vs. established as I am young vs. old.

Get rid of the age limits. Some of us might have had a late start and will kick the crap out of you youngsters.

Comment posted by david on December 1, 2008

Oops, maybe I read this post wrong. Are you worried about those over 50 with breakout projects because so many opportunities limit the age of emerging photographers? If that's what you meant, oh! Thank you! You are so right! ITS Talent, Fabrica, FOAM, and others miss out on plenty of good work because of age limits.

Comment posted by Ellen Rennard on December 1, 2008

David...

...'Word' !

:-)

Comment posted by Joe on December 1, 2008

AGH!!! Am seriously fed up with reading agism thoughts and restrictions of 'what' age is eligible to enter 'contests' ... in the end it is always about the idea ... if the idea is fresh, than you are young, chronology is irrelevant, it is only a number. I hope Ellitt continues to entertain us with his photographic genuis and wit until he chooses to stop!!!

Comment posted by Carol Allen Storey on December 1, 2008

Despite Ellen's misreading of my intro (get your granny glasses on!), it is great to read so many passionate responses from women. Rina, Patricia, Ellen, Cara, Carol....Do you think this issue of age limits is particularly hard on women?

Comment posted by Alec Soth on December 1, 2008

Yes, Alec. As with nearly all things: women in the vast & common world's perception & especially true in any facet of creative endeavors: oddly enough, nubile equates to more worthwhile -- ready to be plucked although still innocent.

As we age, like wine, often after an extended cellaring (called living) perhaps toiling away still undiscovered, we may show more texture & own stronger backbone and might well still have something bubbling while fermenting over the years to offer the viewer -- yet still it's fresh, perhaps brash.

However, the expectations of a wunderkind collecting value for the under 30 or 35 set means any work emerging after that perceived cut-off for "emergence," is shut-out using this out-of-date thinking. An arbitrary (seemingly unnecessary) means. With any luck & perseverance, there's many good years between post-40 and posthumous.

Youth is wonderful. Nothing wrong with Young in context, we've all been there. But to exclude based only on age-old assumptions (barring Grandma Moses) seems illogical in the 21st C. at best.

(Applauding Cara & Amy by the way. And you, for recognizing the discrepancy where you've no real ax to grind & especially for bringing this point to light in a public forum.)

Comment posted by Didi on December 1, 2008

Alec, your question is a good one. Of course, aging women have a tougher row to hoe in ANY field, whether it's photography, finance, politics, etc., especially if they want to break into a new field of endeavor.

But I've found the most damaging agism is INTERNALIZED agism, the attitude too many folks have that they're "too old" to try new things or venture out of their comfort zone, especially with any kind of serious intent to make their mark in that new field. Sometimes you've just got to tell your inner critic to shut the f***k up and get out there and do it!

But that's true for all of us, no matter what our age or sex. It takes guts--as per the interview you posted introducing this thread--to follow your passion, especially if that passion takes you into uncharted territory.

For me personally what has helped give me the confidence I needed to pursue photography full out is having an established photog like David Alan Harvey choose to mentor me. He's the one who has given me the kick in the pants I needed to dream big and work my ass off to accomplish whatever I want. DAH doesn't see age--his own or anyone else's--as a problem, so neither do I.

Patricia

Comment posted by Patricia Lay-Dorsey on December 1, 2008

Alec, LOL, got my glasses on now (but I'm not a granny just yet). Yes, I think it can be harder for women photographers, especially if they raise kid(s). Add in a full time job and, in my case, being a single parent. (I suppose that happens for some male photographers, but I don't know of any.) Doesn't leave a whole lot of time for sleeping by the Mississippi...ohhhhhh

Comment posted by Ellen Rennard on December 1, 2008

Women have one advantage over men: they live longer... Would be a shame not use the extra time.

Comment posted by John Vink on December 1, 2008

Indeed, John...

Something I plan to take advantage of... my grandmother recently passed at the ripe old age of 99 in a long line of women who lived a long time. (The men in the family haven't been so blessed, I'm afraid.),

But to Ellen and Did's points... many of us have this twenty year interval in of raising children that can be a time of quiet creative work, but perhaps time constraints being what they are... the work ferments like a fine wine,(to use Didi's analogy) and only once the kids are in school (if you are lucky and have a system of support), or once they are out of the house can women really flourish creatively in their 40's and 50's. It's then quite frustrating to find many opportunities open to only those under 30.

I bet more than a few men who have done the "stay at home dad" thing would experience a similar frustration. And raising kids can be enormous source of creative fodder... and yet parenting seems to be somewhat marginalized in the art world, but that's another topic.

Good thread, thank you.

Comment posted by Suzanne on December 1, 2008

suzanne

my lover beate and i have just had our first - a son who is two months old today, as it happens..

B, who is not a snapper, has taken a real interest in personal photography projects because she wants some interest outside our son.. a sweetener rather than escapism you understand.. during her maternity leave.

i´ve been caught winding new reel onto my fishing rod in my underpants and also naked, gazing out of the window at the mountains with my binoculars..
romantic.. i know.. could´nt be more proud... etc..
yes..

anyway - i am facing the real prospect of beate producing some fantastic work absolutely BECAUSE we have a son to look after..

the only double-edged sword is hoping that she does well and enjoys her photography, while also hoping to keep my dignity... or at least a little of it.

Comment posted by david bowen on December 1, 2008

nb. susanne..
love your small wonders and more wonders projects... remind me very much of anton kusters brilliant ´sugar´ http://www.antonkusters.com/sugar/

´fine art´ title i found misleading.. could they not just be called by the gallery titles?

Comment posted by david bowen on December 1, 2008

Well, at last it's out of the closet, and I hope it stays out. Ageism in art, and I'm not only refering to photography - what's the average age of winners of the Turner Prize for example, or any major arts grant you can think of? - has been accepted for far too long, even by those it affects most. Like other forms of discrimination, it depends largely on the complicity of its victims. How about a campaign to challenge the legality, never mind the morality, of any competition, award or bursary which stipulates an age limit, wherever they occur - even applications to join Magnum? That might really stir up the shit. We need a few Rosa Parks!

Comment posted by nigel amies on December 1, 2008

paraphrasing Nina...

and yes, life begins right as we feel it does, when we feel it does.
or maybe when the dogs dye and our 'kids' leave home.

Comment posted by joanna on December 1, 2008

Nigel, note that Cristina García Rodero became a nominee in 2005 at age 56.

Comment posted by Alec Soth on December 1, 2008

Nice blogging effort to wake up to.

Even if this topic's fork was incidental, it probably took shape because it's so relevant to the thinking of this blog‘s audience.

Before this entry I was ironically reading the bio’s of incumbents and alumni for a digital dark-room I’d like to apply for residency; based on this list my submission at my age would make me look a bit like an albatross ;-(

…read in to that what you will and I’m sure it’s nothing sinister, but…

imagine if a clause now existed in all applications, whether it be for a residency, membership, or publication... and that clause said:

we are entirely age-agnostic.

I think the benefit would be two fold:

1.) Maybe the glass ceiling is not there, but it would remove any physiological feeling that it was, and

2.) Maybe it would release a segment of ‘non-traditional’ talent that might actually have that physiological block

‘Non-trad’ was actually the term they used in my university when you didn’t unroll immediately after high-school. The irony is that ‘non-trads’ typically paid for the classes with their own money, sat in the front row, and got the best grades….however having been recruited by a firm that didn’t seek out non-trad’s, I felt that they were treated a bit unfair in the hiring.

That being said, I’m certain they would not have tolerated all the hazing in the first two years with the firm. I wonder if having such wide age gaps in management (e.g. very dramatic young managers, very mature older staff) has something to do with the wider-spread issue, especially in places where there’s a great deal of possibly unnecessary duress and drama.... sorry i digresss ;-(

..anwyay, of course no place is guilty of openly discriminating and if challenged they might say that younger artistic talent is in more need of help financially or via resources, but 'age-agnostic' does seem like a nice little policy to become at least widely understood, if not stated.
..

Comment posted by Joe on December 2, 2008

Uh…i meant... ‘psychological’ block....not physiological ;-(

Ok....now i'm off to therapy to get my physiological block sorted :-)

Comment posted by Joe on December 2, 2008

joe..

it´s funny..
by the time i decided to do a degree in snapping, which was arguably not the best way of spending my money at that point, i was labelled as a ´mature student´.

at the age of 22 or so i was actually anything but mature, and had a healthy try at shaking the title with every bone in my body..

i remember a friend telling me about trying to get work with a certain fashionista magazine in london.. his early attempts were unsuccessful because he was not heavily published enough.. and a couple of years later, now with experience he was told he was too old..

in the end i think he just wore the ´wrong´ jeans.

as with ever discussion like this it does come down to one thing, to my mind..
either do the work or do not.. worrying too much about issues and reasons why and why not becomes prohibitive to actually working... there are always reasons and excuses...

if we are doing projects we believe in and which produce results we love, the competition, problems, lack of money, lack of respect and AGE becomes irrelevant.. unnoticed to us.. and in that case we can say it is ´their´ problem.. and continue pressing that shutter.

Comment posted by david bowen on December 2, 2008

Alec,

hmmm... is age harder for women? Well, I would venture to say yes. Not to say men don't have to confront ageism in the workplace. For women there does continue to be an added layer of difficulty in regards to having a family, While artists like Sally Mann have used motherhood as a source of inspiration, she also admits (in the recent documentray about her) to not having to worry about making a living. As this blog pointed out so well, committing to being a photographer requires enormous sacrifice, money, and time. And it rarely results in a lot of income. To be blunt, I getting close to entering the last phase of my fertility, and issues of age and income are heightened for me because of this. Even though much has changed, many women still feel torn between career success and motherhood. And have to postpone one or another. This is somewhat less of an issue for men.

That is just the cold hard facts. But this issue can probably not be solved by changing the age requirement of emerging artist contests:)
C-

Comment posted by Cara on December 2, 2008

The best exchanged portrait is the compromising portrait.

Comment posted by Thatcher Keats on December 2, 2008

Alec & I were on opposite side of a Wingdale Community Singers CD. Not quite an exchanged portrait, but...

Comment posted by Thatcher Keats on December 2, 2008

I'll turn 54 in a couple of months. It was only a few years ago that I found the wherewithal to call myself a photographer, and now I'm working towards establishing a career once I return to the US (I'm living overseas).

Can tell you how good it is to know that I'm not the only one who bases almost everything on gut instinct. The overconceptualized art school approach is definitely not for me.!

Comment posted by alexis on December 3, 2008

"I
like
big
guts,

and I cannot lie.."

Comment posted by patrick yen on December 4, 2008

If you add up all my elapsed shutter times, I still think I come in just under 30 years old. Does that count? Can I still emerge?

Comment posted by Rich Riordan on December 4, 2008

Rich: you shoot A LOT.

At 50000 pictures (overestimation) per year during 35 years and an average of 1/30th per shot, I am barely 162 hours old... Or my math is very bad...

Comment posted by John Vink on December 4, 2008

Thanks John Vink

I think I'm overexposing.
Big fan of your work, by the way.

Comment posted by Rich Riordan on December 4, 2008

I'm late to the discussion- no doubt due to my advanced years (born the last year the Dodgers were still in Brooklyn- the in place to live now for YOUNG photographers). Anyway, I was reminded of just this topic upon seeing the very latest online photo endeavor where emerging YOUNG photographers can go to interact and conspire...

Actually, although I can do without the age discrimination, I really do think young photographers need just such places, and more. Hell, I might even have grown up to be an optimist....

Comment posted by stan b. on December 4, 2008

I think Elliott Erwitt, and everyone else, might get a kick out of this, my new book;
http://www.lulu.com/content/5162138
Just finished today. My best yet.

Back in 1990 when I switched from studying graphic design to photography, moving from Ireland to England, I was told upon interning at a newspaper that I was too old to be starting. I too was 22 years old.

Mind you, I'm now 39 and having spent the last 5 or so years as a stay at home dad (when I prepared the material linked above) I'm now trying to return to professional shooting and it's really tough. Too many whipper snappers around with few responsibilities and willing to work long hours for shit money. What's a maturing chap like me to do?

What I'm actually trying to do is become substantially more entrepreneurial in my internet activities such as my shameless shenanigans above and more besides. It's all systems go for 2009 when I'll be blending video and photography in my endeavors.

Good night.

http://photohumourist.blogspot.com
http://photohumourist.com

Comment posted by Paul Treacy on December 4, 2008

Hi,
You are right at your place.But organization see the experience and work energy.The work of photographer is to do by moving and walking quickly.But i think they do not ignore the experience.

Comment posted by www.quranreading.com on January 2, 2009