Magnum Blog / Eid

Eid

© Olivia Arthur/Magnum Photos Since today is Eid, I just wanted to share this picture that I took in the summer in a small mosque in south London. The picture is part of a new series I am working on called Second Generation, looking at the cultural conflicts for young people growing up in British-Asian communities in the UK. I had been spending some time with an Afghan family in this part of London, who have been immensely open and generous to me. The eldest daughter Mojda is 13, she speaks perfect english and is just like any other British teenager, asking questions about which subjects to study at school and about what to wear to a party with her friends. In contrast, her mother, who is just a year older than me, struggles with her english and is visibly frustrated that we can't be closer because of it. After school every day the older children go along to the mosque for a Koran study class and they took me along with them. I took this picture while they showed me around after the class. Links » Olivia Arthur's Magnum Portfolio » Olivia Arthur's Website

Ulrich

A very good photograph. Btw.: The word Eid in your text is linked to Eid ul-Fitr, it should be corrected to Eid al-Adha.

Stupid Photographer

Without the caption 'spalinin', it's right up there with what I'd call a so what image. Come to think of it, calling it an image is stupid. It isn't. Without the caption it is a worthless snapshot.

Martin Fuchs

Thanks for pointing the wrong link out Ulrich. I just corrected that.

thomas

you got to wonder over the last round of recruits to magnum... suddenly worried over a lack of new 'topical' and 'war' photographers and success of VII they've rushed it and gotten some real b grade photographers. this image is more proof. i'd be trying to win over balazs gardi

Rich Riordan

Hi Olivia

It's a wonder you guys post anything on this blog at all. You share a photo and a story and every 2-bit critic with a laptop and an internet connection slings mud at you in a hit and run portfolio review.

Mr. Stupid and Mr. Thomas, you missed a grand opportunity. You could have said, hey Olivia, interesting project, how'd you get so close to your subjects? Hey Olivia, did they see it as exploitation or were they open to it? Hey Olivia, how do you approach your subjects especially in this day and age of Muslim bashing?

Hey Olivia, who else is going to be included in this project and why? How do you decide and what research do you do? Hey Olivia, do you live among these people or do you commute in, always a little bit the outsider? Hey Olivia, what makes you tick as a photographer and how are you finding your freshman year at Magnum?

Who knows, she may have opened up and told you more about the project and how she works. Maybe you could have even learned something, God forbid. Or Allah.

I've seen the rest of your work on this site and you have a fine eye Olivia. Keep shooting. Never mind the naysayers. They're like stuff in the street. Step around them and keep going where you're headed.

Feel free to answer any of those questions, by the way. Take care.

Stupid Photographer

Interesting questions, Rich. I didn't ask because I have stupid questions for people whose work speaks to me. This snap did not utter a word of interest to me. Didn't even nudge me toward looking at Olivia's other work. Now that you mentioned it and I did look, I agree with you: fine work. Still, the snap above is just that, a snap that says nothing much to anyone who does not read the caption. Photos are supposed to be worth a thousand words, not the other way around.

Ulrich

Photographs 'speak' to those who 'listen'.

bobblack

I'd actually thought Olivia was a brilliant choice for inclusion this year (in fact, i wish Magnum would have chosen more than just 1 woman, but i digress ;)) )....

so, my question is a simple one:

Olivia, where can we see more images from the series of this family and what has drawn you to covering the issue of Islam and the middle east?...was Alexandra Boulat an inspiration?

cheers
all the best
bob

Joe

anyone that’s spent some time with real families in traditional cultures like this has seen the constraints not only placed on women, but even the constraints put on the sons and grandsons when their fathers and grandfathers are present.

to wake up and go to bed next to this tradition puts you in a bit of awe that it exists and you can be a westerner so close to it without totally disrupting it; it’s amazingly tolerant. i guess i’ll never be in awe of a westerner for getting close to this culture for this reason, but i suppose it might look a bit sensational to those in the U.S, because it’s not so readily available.

when you explore non-western traditions in places as accessible as London you see that it’s not really so strange, for example the concept of arranged marriages, when you understand them better, is not terribly different than the modern-day concept of speed-dating now sweeping western cultures.

but back on topic; i know the traditional men i’m friends with are proud of the respect they pay to their fathers and grandfathers, maybe because they look forward to similar succession benefits or maybe it's simply the epitome of social evolution, but it’s not eroding quickly.

however i don’t know how the women feel, not because i don’t wonder, or that it didn’t seem appropriate to ask, or that i didn’t have the opportunity as i was fortunate enough to be part of a work exchange with a very non-western, traditional female,… it was just from the grace of each individuals’ actions, it never seems a valid question, i simply never saw the emotion of conflict or constraint,… culture ‘yes’, .... constraint.. ‘no’..., conflict.. 'no'

so i still wonder and i still have now no idea how these traditional women feel about the cultural constraints, maybe it’s my jaded western eyes that keeps me wondering… but from this image and other images in your portfolio Olivia i continue to get no idea of the ‘cultural’ constraints of women or the ‘cultural’ conflicts they feel, i see archetypal emotions related to obesity in one of your more moving images Olivia, but not cultural ones. i see cultural concepts like dress and décor, but not emotional concepts like conflict and constraint.

my friends that have met you Olivia were entirely infected by your dedication and your body of work, so it will be interesting to see how you reveal the things you set out to reveal in your narrative above; maybe it’s already right before my eyes, but unfortunately i’ve not felt conflict or constraint, i’ve just felt entertained by the lovely tones of medium format film; and it’s not because i’m not listening, because i do know i’m enjoying the photographs, but in a fine art fashion verses one of conflict and constraint documentary.

i do think the questions Rich raises are very compelling, each one of them. i do hope we get the benefit of some very soulful answers to each of them. That would be a nice treat!
..

david bowen

hi olivia.

there are constraints on 2nd generations which i think will be extremely difficult to portray visually.. these include forced repatriation to the ´motherland´ for intended arranged marriages... males and females that is.. and religious pressures, which also bleed into social ones... style of music.. commercialism.. being seen as a consumer rather than a citizen or part of a religion... oops - did i imply that consumerism is an alternative way of being to religion?
hmm.

i´m, like joe and bob, interested in where your ´in´ comes from for this work olivia.. is it that you have close friends within such a community or do you live within the boundaries of such a community, as i used to do in the u.k.?
perhaps it was travels at a young age.. i became obsessed with tibetans.. you know..

joe - respect to you, although i have to say, having attended a bunch of arranged marriages in india, that they are not like speed dating.

here are two i witnessed..
one - a 27 year old man betrothed to a 13 or 14 year old girl.. small village wedding.. he ran off into the jungle with mates, chomping on hash cookies, on the 3rd or 4th day while she wept and could not be consoled by her school friends..

and another.. where the couple were veiled and did not even see each other, let alone speak, before the were joined in matrimony.

and the dowerys played like a twisted re-run of ´the generation game´.
a 70´s sideboard.. a black and white telly.. a bamboo bookshelf with glass shelves.

just to say - i know that when a young girl is married it does not necessarily mean the marriage will be consummated right away, and i also understand the principle of a family needing to oversee who the partner is..
it´s also true that i have met many people within arranged marriages who are extremely happy with the result..
i guess there are arranged marriages, and arranged marriages..

back on topic, i think it´s going to be a real challenge to find an angle on the cultural problems of the 2nd and 3rd generations without getting into some seriously grey areas - depends how deeply you wander down the rabbit hole..

even so.. it´s still a difficult area to tackle from the perspective of white european without crossing some wires..
maybe.
maybe not.

good luck olivia.. look forward to seeing more.

david

david bowen

and stoopid one..
what happened to fishing?
jeeez.. you just can´t help yourself when it comes to snaps.
*smiley*

Stupid Photographer

David, stupid photographers can't live by fishing alone. ;-)

david bowen

well, i´m pretty dull and i caught a cod that fed 4 with leftovers the other week..

Stupid Photographer

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cough up the fish picture or stop bragging! ;-)

Stupid Photographer

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cough up the stupid Cod picture, or quit bragging! ;-)

david bowen

THE BIG BANG KILLED COD
.. and i caught it on the first cast.. i have a witness..
in norway the tourist board say you can catch one every four casts.

(sorry olivia)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3171/3098653810_46442e5db7.jpg?v=0

Stupid Photographer

(Pardon us Olivia)

Damn! Now that's what I stupidly call an image which has a story to tell, and thousands of words will not tell it better!

Joe

David, with regards to your experience,… hands down, that’s not been mine; with the little commentary you’ve described, those instances sound pregnant with visual evidence of emotional conflict and constraint.

my experience is entirely forged from growing up in NY, then living on Edgware Road, and still working daily with contractors from Mumbai. My experience also seems an entirely different social-economic flavour than your experience David, but my experience seems very similar to the images that Olivia is collecting.

Your experience makes me think there was struggle, Olivia’s images remind me of the pleasing things I saw on the way to the Odeon theatre,…

the things you write about reminds me of documentaries, the things that Olivia writes about above reminds me of visits to co-workers homes that moved here from France and Poland… of course their children speak better english, but it’s a genderless archetypal struggle of all ex-patriots and not the emancipation of women.

i don’t mean to sound harsh, because i think with a great deal of intimacy and closeness and a great deal of time maybe there is something here to reveal. And even though all my experiences say no, David what you describe says yes.

But if you asked one of my friends on Edgware road why his sister hides so much of herself with her clothing, he would ask you why would she want to look like a girl on queue to a club in soho square. This experience tells me the individuals in the image above dress this way because it is appealing to do so, they feel it’s a positive aspect of their culture, not one that causes them grief. That being said, I look forward to hearing Olivia’s take on this as she certainly has the deepest knowledge.

on a totally different note, before typing this i was climbing out of the rabbit hole that is called ‘Stupid Photographer’. I made the mistake of clicking his link and attempting to figure out what this clown is all about. My response…, two things, First: i’ve just lost two hours of my life that i can never ever have back. Second, although i’m certain Stupid Photographer would be a great guy to hang out with, i’m certain my wife and my therapist and maybe even my childhood parole officer, would prefer i didn’t. I recommend most to take the blue pill in the case of S.P. ;-)

and S.P..... manners are still more important that clever comedy!

(second sorry to Olivia)
..

Stupid Photographer

Sorry Joe and all. I'm sure that if you provided your website link, we'd all be stupidly blown away.

"Humor is mankind's greatest blessing." - Mark Twain, a Biography

david bowen

joe - i dug this out for you..
i took two frames.. in the other she is looking down and the running makeup is clearer.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/3098723952_2881a11818.jpg?v=0

stoop.. thanks.
it was an important time to catch a fish on a first cast, for unwritten reasons... yes.. the photo of a photo as a memento is inclusive of the person who took the photo.
how stupid is that?
quite.

joe.. we´re all stupidly fumbling for the pulse of our lives and our times and maybe that´s why stupids blog hold such curiosity..

i think he´s just being honest, and if in doing so he thickens skin then more is the benefit..

love to all.. (it´s whiskey tonight)
david

Stupid Photographer

Stupid love to all indeed! Cheers mates, with plumb brandy at this end!

david bowen

... and the photo i posted was from the first wedding i described..

bhang bhang
om shanti

Olivia Arthur

Firstly, about the negativity this picture inspired... I posted it because I thought that on Eid, it would be nice to show something a bit light-hearted and positive from a mosque. The girls were skipping round the prayer room, a place which is normally only photographed full of men lined up praying, and I thought it was refreshing.

Anyway, thank you all for your for your questions and some interesting points you have raised... Let me try and answer what I can. I should also point out that I am just getting started on this project (or rather I started it in the summer and then had to put it on hold while I got busy with a whole lot of other things - perhaps an answer to one of your questions Rich about the freshman time with magnum, needing to find a balance between personal projects and work!)

About the project, firstly I should mention that it is not just about the Muslim community, I am going to be spending time with many of the different South Asian communities in the UK (who are Hindu, Muslim, Jain, Sikh etc). Though of course there is more sensitivity in the Muslim community because there has been so much negative press, particularly in the UK. But I haven't found people to be suspicious or closed towards me so far at all, as I mentioned in my post they have been very hospitable. One important thing is I try to be very open about what I am doing, I have a little book with photographs from my other projects and I always show this to people at the beginning. The fact that I have lived in India also interests people and makes them feel that I understand a bit about their culture. Its early days yet so the project could still take many different directions, but I like to start by meeting lots of different people and seeing which way I get drawn.

For this particular project I am getting into it through a variety of different links, some friends of friends and some through organisations/events that I have actively sought out. In the summer I went to a festival in the north of england called Living Islam. It was a three day event in a field where everyone stays in tents and there are lots of different activities/talks going on. That was an amazing experience for me, I met some incredibly friendly people who talked very openly about their cultural and religious feelings and they were all very welcoming. There was definitely a feeling of pride, and that they were encouraging me to photograph and show people the positive atmosphere in the community.

In answer to another of your questions Rich, yes I think I will always be a little bit the outsider, even if i were to get much closer to these people. Despite the amazing hospitality that I am offered in these communities, I will always be different to them just because of who we all are. But that is not to say that I can't have a relationship of trust and be close to them.

Joe, in response to your first comment, I definitely agree that the pressure of traditions falls as much on the men and boys as it does on the women. But the pressures are very different and I think they are more restrictive on the women. Men are expected to be achievers, but they are also somehow allowed to make mistakes along the way, from my understanding, women are given less leeway to make those mistakes. In a way women are expected to understand their role, and the expectations on them from a younger age. Some of the girls I met at the festival talked about this, about how they had felt it was unfair when they were younger. They were not girls in situations without opportunities - they were finishing or had just finished university - but they just felt that they had not been allowed to stray from their paths in the same way that their brothers had.

In a way what you have said Joe - that you fail to see the evidence of these constraints in my pictures - is intentional, what I have always tried to do with this work is to get away from just showing the constraints. They do exist and I have often referred to them in my text (which incidentally I do believe to be very important, I don't think that the pictures have to tell the whole story on their own) but I think that they are also what we are most often told about these communities and don't want to just reinforce that. What I have often tried to do is to show something that is somehow universal, that can be related to by people far away from the culture that they come from. This was actually the original premise for my middle-distance project, to look for something that could be related to by people from both the east and the west, to find a space in between.

Back to the Second Generation project, you are right there are lots of issues that are very subtle and may well be difficult to fully convey. Arranged marriages as you both pointed out are hugely varied and are very often misrepresented and misunderstood on all sides. I can only say at this stage that my aim is first to try and understand what I can and then to see if I can show it.

Olivia

Stupid Photographer

"I thought that on Eid, it would be nice to show something a bit light-hearted and positive from a mosque. The girls were skipping round the prayer room, a place which is normally only photographed full of men lined up praying, and I thought it was refreshing." - Olivia Arthur

Stupid problem for me is, without a caption, nobody would ever know the image was made in a prayer room of a mosque.

david bowen

olivia - i can really understand the idea of showing life as universal.. the idea that we are all the same and share the same relative experience.. and i think that is a worthwhile and commendable approach to take, especially in this era..

i think the following discussion evolved from the idea that you were photographing the ´cultural conflicts´ therein.. as a reaction to that.. you know.

it´s great that you are accepted and that you bothered to live in india for a while.. always a worthwhile pursuit..
my brother once said - ´why go there? it is full of pakistanis´..
any effort to dispel the myths and fight ignorance is always worth the investment of time.

good luck and please post more once you have it... and with captions, i guess :ø)
david

John Mason

Stupid said: "Stupid problem for me is, without a caption, nobody would ever know the image was made in a prayer room of a mosque."

For me, that's precisely the point. It looks no more like a mosque than an inner city store-front church looks like at church. And, yet, for their members, they are--in every way--a mosque, a church, sanctuaries, the houses of God.

This photo has shown me something new.

As for your point about captioning... Surely you don't object to captions? Surely you don't expect photos to be literal, perfectly readable, unambiguous, and open to a single meaning? I'd guess that such a photo has never existed, and I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't like it if it has.

Rich Riordan

Thanks Olivia. Can't wait to see more.

thomas

got you all talking, fantastic!

Stupid Photographer

"Surely you don't object to captions? Surely you don't expect photos to be literal, perfectly readable, unambiguous, and open to a single meaning? " -- John Mason

Yes, I have many objections to captions. If the Chinese don't get my stupid images without captions, I failed. In this I'm completely with Gary Winogrand:

"A photograph is the illusion of a literal description of how the camera 'saw' a piece of time and space."
"Photography is not about the thing photographed. It is about how that thing looks photographed."
"I photograph to see what the world looks like in photographs."
"I don't have anything to say in any picture. My only interest in photography is to see what something looks like as a photograph. I have no preconceptions."

Joe

bravo Olivia, i hope your soulful effort sets a new benchmark for what’s possible with this seminar disguised as a blog.

from your images, from your intentions, from your writing, from your approach, from the feedback my friends gave after meeting you, i really wonder which to pick to be most enthusiastic about with regards to what images you might bring back.

i suspect its none of them for me, for me it’s your character, more specifically your selfless, moral-compass. if you choose to make photographs of people in their natural habitat acting in a natural way, then you need to have a certain ethic, a certain attitude, a certain grace, that renders you almost invisible and provides access to moments not possible to others and this personal attribute transcends killer projects making all of life a subject.

but what makes someone invisible?,… or in your case so selfless that it seems so? Picasso seemed fascinated with this concept of becoming invisible, he described that what ever it is that you work on had to be so important to you that you surrendered to it and in doing so the work was all that was there and he felt invisible because of it, this theme finds its way into various fairy tales and a hint maybe about you Olivia.. i suspect you have a propensity for this alchemy; it’s evident from the intimacy of images you’ve already collected.

I do think there’s some suffering for you Olivia for any proactive intentions though. Grant applications have a funny way of forcing hairy-fairly lofty motives. For some reason, call it a hunch, I think the most important images you will collect will be the ones where there is actually nothing really to reveal.

Specifically your images so far show dress and décor that seems exotic to us, spiced with just enough photographic ambiguity to make us wonder why we like it, like it enough to look at longer than some multi-media presentation. But the humans in your photographs smile like we smile, exchange looks the way we exchange looks and worry the way we all worry. So what’s exotic in your photographs might hook our attention, but what makes them meaningful, in my opinion, is the universal body language that could just as easily be taking place somewhere in Tennessee.

So i look forward to a body of work that shows this primordial evidence and i hope you can shape it into the stories the mob will demand, but I think these same images will reward your early career the least ;-(
..

Rich Riordan

Mr. Stupid raises an interesting point: to caption or not to caption. And backs it up with a potent example: Gary Winogrand.

I think where a photographer is apolitical or purely artistic this makes sense. A photograph should stand on its own.

The other side of the photography coin, though, is when a photographer is not apolitical and has a specific point of view to express. Especially if they don't want to fall into using stereotypical visual representations of the "other", as I believe is Olivia's intention.

The photographer has to leave in some visual clue as to who is portrayed (hence the head scarfs in the above picture) but leave out many others (hence running around a basement somewhere instead of standing in front of a recongnisable mosque). Thus leading to a rethinking of what "Muslim" is and how, underneath it all, we are all much the same.

If ALL visual clues of muslimness are removed then the picture reduces to a bunch of kids running around a basement somewhere in Boise.

So, depending on the visual clues left in and the social or political viewpoint the author wishes to express, in these cases captioning becomes very important.

I think the old adage about a photo being worth 1,000 words is wrong: it should be that a photo is ONLY worth 1,000 words. And that is usually paltry few to explain anything of significance.

I think as photographers, if we want the audience to understand our viewpoint we have to leave them with the correct 1,000 words that properly expresses it. Otherwise any reading of the situation is possible.

This issue doesn't seem to be present if the intent is purely artistic.

It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this, Mr Stupid, as well as Olivia's and other Magnum photographers'. After all, they have to deal with these choices all the time. Love to know what everyone thinks of this.

Take care.

Stupid Photographer

My stupid thoughts on Rich's most excellent views is: I don't want images to answer, I want them to ask. When an image brings questions, I'm all over it like a rash, forever. When it answers, I walk away, instantly. Olivia's image above seems to be trying to ask questions, but does not fully succeed -- for me. It is somewhere between asking and answering, because without the caption it fails -- for me. Now, I do now expect the rest of the world to have the same stupid point of view, so I'm not surprised when others demand answers from photos, or need captions, or hate it when images ask questions.

Stupid Photographer

Pardon me, stupid typos:

My stupid thoughts on Rich's most excellent views ARE ....

And:

Now, I do NOT expect the rest of the world to have the same stupid point of view...

Sorry!

david bowen

there was an interesting chat about captions going on here
http://blog.magnumphotos.com/2008/11/sumo.html

Ali

What a worthless discussion and ideas over a single photograph...

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people.

Eleanor Roosevelt

Stupid Photographer

Geez Ali, and I thought I was stupid. Thanks for making me feel like a genius, in comparison.

Joe

Hi Ali,

i was a bit taken back by your comment. it’s easy to dismiss a sentence that includes the word worthless ,… most injections that use this term are just that, but you then add a thoughtful quote, so i’m pulled back in and now a bit puzzled.

since i’ve seen all these things,… ideas, events, and people,… described with such effort here, and these are all things that seem valuable, can you please describe to us what things are missing or what things should have been discussed Ali?

from your two contrasting sentences it appears quotes speak to you better, so i’ll borrow one for you.…

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt. - Mark Twain.

To all,

I wonder what Martin and Alec think when comments are posted that inhibit the discussion verse encourage it? I suppose Martin is too busy deleting viagra spam and Alec is already doing his job since we’ve got loads here to discuss.

but discussions taking place about these articles via e-mail rather than on this blog are growing. That’s not horrible until someone says in an e-mail something that could benefit us all, but that person has no appetite to share it on the blog.

Why do you think that is?.... Why do people so valuable to healthy discussions avoid them?... I don’t know, but my suspicion is that posting here for some feels a bit like bringing in your pet rabbit for show-and-tell. And that anxiety isn’t eased when you’re wiping off your forehead a spit-wad chucked by some nameless kid from the back of the room, especially when you were sharing something you personally care about.

Of course it’s healthy to have heated controversial debate, but is a tolerance to spit-wads a pe-requisite to making those contributions?

Unfortunately more people would prefer to make valuable exchanges in a more civil place like e-mail, and more tragic, the more that happens, the more soulful contributors we will lose here.
..

bobblack

just a brief, very brief comment (un bobblack-like) about the turn of comments/thoughts...

first, that others didnt react or feel compelled by Olivia's pic, is fair since part of the nature we're photographers is to evoke, eliict, explore. I happen to be a big fan of Olivia's book and think Middle Distance is simply sublime, magical and profound work...like alexandra b's important and significant work, Olivia's projects allow us a door into a world that most of us simply have neither the time, inclination, patience or familiarity to have stepped through...when she was nominated this summer, some of us raised our glasses in joy....that some of the readers/commentators were not as struck by the pic is a fair and honest approach (sans the negative orientation), because as photographers we are nothing without questioning and digging...is not photography, in all it's shapes and guises, an excavation to begin with?...and i too believe in the role of photography as a Questioning, an description or an evocation that should and must raise questions, rather than to narrate "truths" or "preconceptions"...the honus of journalism, at least for me, is similar, contrary to orthodoxy, i believe it should question similarily, not the moment but our (viewers) "understanding"...

part and parcel of this is discussion...what is a blog if not that?...as a photographer and a reader of this blog, i welcome discent and questioning...for it is part of our responsibility, is it not?...

Stupid may have a "stupid" moniker (only 'cause he/she aint that all stupid actually), but his confrontation and questioning is an affirmative presence....not only 'cause he/she is humorous, but because he raises important discussion points...even when i dont agree, i find (Hegel anyone) his words inciting (in the best sense) and insightful....

we're all grown up folks, and a little bit of discussion and argument is critical....otherwise, let's just to join a Flickr group ...

moreover, pics have different roles for different moments/uses (generate discussion, part of a book, essay, exhibition, stuck on the wall).....

still the irony is often lost on so many folk....what is the reason we all run around with boxes between our parched fingers snapping up, cateloging, engoring the world with more imagery?....aint it in the end, the same story:

to offer and to provoke that which is our ineluctable nature: to tell and share stories as a way to bridge the dark unknowing of our chartless ways...

bring it all on, both pics and the negotiation, frustrating and fulfilling, of all that...

cheers, b

Martin Fuchs

Alright guys, thanks all for your comments and opinions. I have to say though that certain comments don't really have to do with the topic or the photograph anymore.
Stupid Photographer: Your point of view is appreciated but quite frankly, your point of view came across already, no need to repeat yourself. Please do respect other people's opinion as we do respect yours, personal attacks are not welcome on this blog, like in the case of Stupid Photographer replying to Ali. Please take the time to read our Blog Policy again.

Thanks again guys, time to go out for a drink and wait for the next blog post.

Cheers,
Martin

Stupid Photographer

My sincere apology. I truly, honestly, absolutely did not consider anything I wrote on this blog -- or anywhere else for that matter -- a personal attack. However, since you consider it as such, once again, my sincere apology.

And, you will NEVER EVER hear another stupid word from me on the Magnum blog, again.

Not even a single letter.

Best of images to all!

Adios!

Over and out.

david bowen

erm...
what?

when did photography become something for which debate was not welcome..?
not AGAIN, s.p...

for the love of jesu..

joe n bob.. bang on.
s.p. - this is becoming a habit.
ali... well.. admiration to you for not lowering yourself.
ahhhh.

pea's n chips.
david

Joe

not good… baby out with the bath water comes to mind.

first Jörg now S.P.

probably impossible, but certainly worthwhile if Martin and Alec could find some clever way to get both those individuals to come back and play, coming from me seems a bit of a hypocrisy, but it’s all about the agenda.

certainly both of those individuals seem valuable to the agenda.
..

bobblack

I am not much in the photography world, just a hard working photog/writer trying to frickin' pay the bills (with my wife, another hard-working photog) of raising a 14year old on 2 artists salaries, and that means about the same as 1 salary for a gainfully employed n.american, so u get the drift, but i hope i can (though i dont have the name or work recognition as Alec) have some tiddle influence on Stupid PHotographer:

Hey, Stoop. Listen (i know u r reading, just as at LS), you are way too Stupid to run away from here, and I for one as a charter member of SPA ask u (since u've returned from fishing) to get your stupid comments (less more than a single letter) BACK HERE!...just as i severly miss u at LS, i think you need to see the banter from others for what it is....dont frickin' jump shit...i mean, arent you too Stupid to take all this too seriously...

I for one think that your "Stupid" comments and Joe's "Smart" comments help this place get back to the idea that I imagine Alec and Martin had hoped for this blog: that is:

REAL DISCUSSION/ARGUMENT/SHARING/IDEAS about what not only Magnum members do, but what we as a community/profession do: which is ENGAGE!...

u havent seen me, not once, walk away from SPA have you?....

besides: as my friend Dave Harvey always reminds everyone: "be of good cheer"...it's frickin' the Holiday Season...get your Stupid but back to the keyboard, i eagerly await you :))))))))...(besides, we havent made squat this year financially from SPA (what's new), so I need some lovin from U for being a member: agitated words give me hope brother/sister :))))

cheers
bob

Ali

What pissed me off was that people jack off on the blogs all the time... In our case, majority of the comments(including my own) are not related to photographer's post and photograph, which didn't make sense to me, neither owner of the photograph... People need to learn how to criticize a body of work or a single photograph...

My mouth is mostly time closed but my ears are always open, as bob knows who I am... I am not even an average mind person may be not even a small mind.... though I don't want to be anything...

that's all from me, back to topic and respect to photographer please....

cheers, Ali

bobblack

Ali/Stoop:

u guys have more in common than you think....and Stoop, actually, Ali is SPA material, a good photographer, a big no-bullshit-ego heart and that boy actually can sing a tune about photogs richer than many Names i know personally....

call it, the anonymity of the blog world...but, if y'all give me any kind of credance, let me assure both of y'all, that you both are needed......and now that i see that Ali is the Ali i know personally, let's just broker this: photography is better off from those who seem to misunderstand one another because of the medium of voice-removed blog but have the same damn lament...

i respect both of y'all, ....trust in that....

ok, back to a dead line....

running
hugs
b
.

bobblack

and to get back on track y'all, PLEASE take a look at Olivia;s

MIDDLE DISTANCE!

(martin, please hot link, so the url isnt so long, thanks mate)

david bowen

ali

why not contribute your thoughts, rather than criticize overheard ones?

everyone posting in this thread has concerned themselves with olivia's photograph and concept first and foremost..

i think the blog is turning into an interesting place, so please - join in.

david bowen

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7758870.stm might be interesting olivia.. made me think of what you're doing..

Ali

Dear David,

The photograph and written text made no sense to me, neither any of the comments.. I don't have positive or negative thing to say... so why should I contribute? I did not criticize any sentiments, my concern was the atmosphere of whole discussion.. Everyone is posting in this thread but do they talk about subject matter or not? I sometimes read other photographers' blogs where I see millions of comments, even the blog photographer farts I bet he will get 200 comments....

Joe

I don't have positive or negative thing to say... so why should I contribute?

If I ever find myself feeling the way you just described Ali i find it's better not to contribute, most people do, i might also resist these gems Ali:

What a worthless discussion and ideas over a single photograph...

"What pissed me off was that people jack off on the blogs all the time"

"even the blog photographer farts I bet he will get 200 comments"

Are these contributions appropriate anywhere? But the gem that interests me the most,.. is the one where i'm asking myself if we are actually reading the same blog Ali:

my concern was the atmosphere of whole discussion.. Everyone is posting in this thread but do they talk about subject matter or not

I'm prepared to just remain puzzled on that one, so no more gems please Ali.

By the way, i just figured out what graphical aspect of Olivia's image above teases me the most.. Michael David Murphy wrote about it a bit over here...

…it's the concept circular movement, both clock-wise and counter clockwise.. it has a certain graphical energy to it because it's both perpetual and predictable. It’s like we can just wind up these static subjects put them in the frame lines and the suggested energy will repeat over and over. The antitheses of this is when element in the frames are moving at vectors and eventually out of the frames. No, this image doesn’t suddenly reveal anything to me! But it does have something in that makes it grow on me more ;-)
..

Nike Kobe IV

Thanks for pointing the wrong link out Ulrich.